Dating a mormon woman

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I opened the drawer, and I saw that blue slip. And if being single lasts longer than you expected as it certainly did for me , consider yourselves blessed with the increased abilities and opportunities to focus, dive deeply, be still and profound in service and learning, linger, explore, soak up, share.

I go on a couple dates a year, usually because I ask. This has made me despondent over the future of society. If you want a person to become better than they are now, then treat them with kindness instead of ignoring them. Retrieved 8 February 2017. But one generalization is probably worth throwing into the mix. They were engaged within a few too. Look for girls in your singles ward.

Jennifer, You and Nsomi are both beautiful writers. Pearce writes mostly humorous and introspective works, as well as his musings which span from fatherhood, to dating, to life, to the people and dynamics of society. After you drink from the small individual-size cup of water, discard it in the center slot of the tray on which its passed.

Dating a Mormon: Tips for Non-Mormons - In fact, it may be even a worse situation. And I suppose I am already aware of most of my prospects in my stake, or could be, if I could stomach the idea of attending any of those activities designed for single people.

The other night, over dinner with friends, we got to talking about dating in the LDS world. The demographics at the table: two married not to each other , and three never-married or divorced. I do think there is a certain special level of hell to dating as an LDS single that one largely escapes when dating in the secular world. For LDS people, getting married is generally the benchmark in achieving the social status of adulthood; far more than in the secular world. For those of us who find ourselves unmarried— even if you were previously married— no matter how impressive your resume, career achievement or college degrees, in very manifest ways, we are still treated as adolescents. This applies to men and to women, incidentally. But by slightly, I imagine somewhere inside of 5 years to be average. What I found in the LDS dating as an over 30 divorced woman was that the men in my demographic, almost without fail, were fishing in the 20-year old pond. The men fishing in my pond? Well, with over 25 men contacting me from one LDS dating site, only one was within 5 years of my age. And three of the 25 were older than my father. I was very clear and honest about my age, my divorce, and that status of young children in my home. On the converse side, a male dinner companion from the other night was telling about his dating site experience. He put up a nice photo of himself, with a sincere and honest profile. He sat back, agog. Back to the one guy who was in my demographic, age-wise: I agreed to go out on a date. We met for dinner at a local restaurant, and had sat down and were making small talk, but before the salads arrived, he jumped right into telling me how he was searching for his Eternal Companion, and wanted to begin his Eternal Family right away. I was clear in my profile that I already have three children. Lets sit down like adults and have a conversation, over a nice meal, and share our world-views and opinions, and maybe a funny story. Can we do that without distractions, gimmicks and discussing my reproductive parts on the first date? Can you ask for a second date without a little cute card tied to my windshield wiper or a balloon tied to my doorknob? I would find that darling for my daughter, at sixteen, being asked to the prom. It seems as though the extra pressure on LDS folks to marry, and thus achieve adulthood, has distorted us in some very important ways. My observation is that we are looking for cultural markers within the world of mormonism, sometimes often? This is evidenced in not only the messed up dynamic of dating I mention through my admittedly particular examples, but also in the formulaic expression of pairing off we see in LDS , wedding announcements and in how weddings events are created! If you want the template, look at the LDS wedding boards on Pinterest Outward markers become so incredibly prevalent that I fear we are losing the very essence of our individuality in the quest to meet cultural expectation and out-mormon the next guy. For those of us who find ourselves unmarried— even if you were previously married— no matter how impressive your resume, career achievement or college degrees, in very manifest ways, we are still treated as adolescents. This applies to men and to women, incidentally. Though, I wonder how much of it is our own buy-in to the LDS cultural definitions of adulthood. In our fallen state status is written into our genetics and so we our constantly comparing ourselves to others to see where in the heirarchy we fit and how to climb higher. The only answer is to become new creatures through the atonement of Christ in the which we all can become one rather than creatures who are clamboring over each other to become the king of the hill. I, like your friend, saw very little attention as the nice, genuine, honest man searching for a wife. I hated dating in the church; it was the same as outside the church. Many, if not most, women were only attracted to the bad guys. Like my companion in the mission, who wore only boxer shorts to play volleyball, and had the sisters drooling over him. I did have better success dating before I was a Mormon, but how much of that is because of personality, and how much is attributable to being Mormon? I certainly saw more adult behavior good and bad, but the maturity was for the good outside the church. He put up a nice photo of himself, with a sincere and honest profile. He sat back, agog. Had I not lived in Utah, I would probably think your stories are made up. But I know how the LDS dating circus works and I hear you. My comment is simple: open your mind to dating outside the LDS world. Let the LDS experience enrich your life, but where it begins to hinder it, reach outside. There are wonderful people to meet and wonderful experiences to have beyond the LDS dictated life frame we are supposed to stick to. Tracy you are so right! Righteous Mormon Man, I was eager to date as I married at barely nineteen. X had told me so many times that I was fat, ignorant, and had nine kids so nobody would want me and I was out to prove him wrong. I was 48, decent looking, dressed nice, am intelligent, humorous when I want to be, etc. At first, I dated a single LDS man in my ward who was a little socially awkward — a nerd, nice when you got to know him kind of guy, but still weird. He was the only single guy who asked me out. Most of the attendees were much younger and seemed to be in cliques. I did attend several older single dances. My take away from the LDS singles activities was the guys were looking for younger women and they wanted a playmate, not to be raising children,. Fair enough…The LDS dating sites were similar. Most of them wanted a younger woman as well. I really did find it great fun as I never met any of them and it was a way for me to harmlessly build my confidence, and honestly, it fed my ego to think someone might like me. After six months I went to a non LDS dating site and actually had more fun. I then dropped the dating sites because I spent too much time on them. It was self-imposed pressure from church teachings. I enjoyed being single tho, paying my bills, working and going to school, being with my kids. It was such a relief after 29 years with X. After being divorced over a year I met the coolest NOMO ever! Older than I, never married, never had kids, intelligent, professional, an anomaly, but so respectful of me. We talked about kids, garments, money, etc. Then I asked him to take a compatibility test thru BYU. Turned out we were extremely compatible, which I already suspected. We married almost ten years ago. I count myself very blessed to have an intelligent, respectful man at my side, who is proud of my intelligence and accomplishments. To all appearances, he could be a model Mormon. We met at the local library, I checked him out and never took him back — true story!!!!! Sherry, I appreciate your story and am happy you had a good happy ending- but I do think we need to be careful about making blanket statements about LDS men. I know many fantastic, wonderful and brilliant LDS men. Christian J, at the time, I was living in the Mormon Corridor out west. Your observation that 30+ single Mormon men are looking at the -30 pool is probably not isolated, unfortunately. Then, there is that huge pool of 40+ men who begin their mid life crises and want to feel like they are still in their 20s, they go after twenty-something year olds to prove themselves or something. The catch, the twenty-something year old ladies tend to give in when enough green is on the table.. We also talked about sex and decided we would wait til we were married, which melted my heart that he respected my beliefs. As to children, we laughed at the thought of me having more! Such a contrast to my X who wanted me to keep having children, which was a huge part of our divorce — marital rape, abuse, etc. I still find it refreshing to be married to a mature kind man who loves me for who I am and cheers me on everyday. I do believe there ARE good men and women in the world, so the dating pool of LDS singles needs to be expanded. The most important part is to LISTEN to the SPIRIT! Why would our loving Mother and Father punish my new DH for being a better man than my LDS X? My heart has been opened to many new thoughts and understandings. I could never go back to such a narrow existence! My experience in the post-divorce LDS dating scene was similar to many shared here. I was living in the Mormon corridor at the time and joined a couple of online LDS dating sites for a time. It was very disheartening. I ended up marrying a non-member I met through work, and have been very happy. I married at 19, divorced at 24, remarries at 25. Mormon dating sites are horrific. I had a couple of 50-60yo men asking me out. Then, there is that huge pool of 40+ men who begin their mid life crises and want to feel like they are still in their 20s, they go after twenty-something year olds to prove themselves or something. The catch, the twenty-something year old ladies tend to give in when enough green is on the table.. Much of those triggers are counterproductive to finding someone who will bring happiness to the table. I think that much in modern culture encourages us to be shallow and mormon culture is often caught up in the flow so that the mixture of modern culture with mormon culture produces some very undesirable results. I found it a little weird for teenagers, straight creepy for college students, but to know that this is happening outside of BYU campus?! This has made me despondent over the future of society. I almost think you need trigger warnings on this post because it brought back some awful memories from my post-divorce dating life a few years ago when I was in my late 30s. The 40-something that took me to walk through Walmart instead of dinner like we had planned, because he had gotten hung up at work and ate something on his way to pick me up. Then wanted to go build a snowman in the moonlight and 20-degree temperatures. I decided the date was over. Unfortunately, I could go on and on. I met quite a few really wonderful men in the process but I sure had to wade through a lot of strange ones too. He never shared many specifics but he had some incredible tales of the idiocy involved in dating from both men and women. Expectations on what a perfect spouse would be like, for one. Honest to goodness she thought her role in life was to do nothing—and I mean nothing—other than make her spouse happy. He has found someone who has brought his smile back he was text-flirting with her all Christmas! It was SO WEIRD and awesome at the same time! Maybe 33 years of a good marriage taught him a few things about courting?? The women I met had little life experience beyond LDS motherhood and their worldview showed it. The law of chastity and sealing rules makes finding a fun person to date a lot of work. It ranged from women who fell instantly in love to four dinner dates with a very nice woman with five children that yielded a quick hug and a single fish kiss and she though we were growing very close! Secular dating as you call it returned my sanity and renewed my interest in women, many secular women actually have something interesting to say! If they are healthy and active age is just a number guys! Get over it and you will meet some wonderful women with depth. My youngest sister is now 21 and largely in the same boat that I was at her age. She is starting to realize that she may need to expand her pool a bit or move to California. Kristine — LOL My never married experience on LDS dating sites has been that the vast majority of men who contact me are significantly older 15+ years. A friend of mine went on a date with someone this was in UT. She was 30, both were never married and had no children. My own experience has been relatively mild, although I have had a couple men ask me — in the middle of the first date — if I would be interested in going out again. My favorite date with an LDS guy was spent making out in a car in Findlay Ohio when it was 4 below outside. I was 37 at the time. So if you are 39, then 64 is supposed to be OK. The older you get, the less well that rule works, I think. Hannah and Amanda — LOL! Dating is so beneath us all sometimes! Hannah, I also went out with one man who was obsessed with the love languages test. He had no interest in even going out until I took that test and confirmed that we were compatable. I felt like a lot of men wanted to date the paper me I guess I fit the LDS mold? Well, as a single, never married 29 year old, I understand the frustration. I live in the Mormon corridor, and is very difficult to find someone. I am on the short side, nerdy, and a little socially awkward, thank you autism spectrum disorder. I recently asked a girl out, a frien of mine, and she just got angry. I was also told that I was too nice. That was rather brutal. Guys and Girls both stink, and can be rather rude. BTW, I have no problem dating women who are older than me, or taller, or younger, or shorter. Anyway, I guess my point is thank you Tracy, and I understand. We all need to be more mellow and accepting. I agree that single people are considered adolescents. It is a crying shame. I cannot date a man older than my father. Maybe it works for someone else, but for me… no. At 37-38 I drew the line at 50, but even then most of the men were looking younger than me. I should add, one man I ended up dating and really enjoying his company was two years younger than me, and he kept insisting he was comfortable with it. He was also not a Mormon. Brain F, that girl is an ass. The perfectly-pleasant-evening:catastrophic-but-hilarious-story ratio has been pretty good, in my experience. Thanks for reinforcing the meat market mentality by using cattle references, guys. I met my NOMO husband during my exodus out of the church, but got in some interesting Mormon dating as a 20-30 year old single woman prior to that. The oldest man that creeped me out: late 60s. He was the YSA SS teacher I was 23ish at the time and confessed to me that one day, in the eternities, we would be together thanks to polygamy, and made several inferences to how awesome the sex would be. I think I still have PTSD from that one. You are all good people for maintaining a sense of humor. I hated the dating game, but that may have been partially because my view of it was framed by how my parents met. He was 20 years her senior, a widower with north of 10 kids, the two were set up on a blind date by one of said kids, he proposed on said blind date, and here we are. I had been taught to fear women — their bodies, their ideas, etc. I wish I could have been better, more mature, less unbalanced, probably less creepy, but those things were simply beyond my capacity while I struggled with monstrously conflicting messages. When I was about 30, I took a Mormon woman of about the same age out to dinner. As I dropped her off, she fended off a minor smooth move with a two page questionnaire, asking about my testimony, dating history, goals and even sexual history. She said she had gotten the questions from EFY when she was 16 and had used them ever since. I needed to answer the questions before a second date. And so, dear reader, I never saw her again. As a former bishop in an older single adult ward everyone was over 25 by definition I have some stories of others that I will not tell. But one generalization is probably worth throwing into the mix. I used to observe and tell people who were not still or ever married-with-children by 27 that the Mormon life story that they grew up expecting was not. That story is not going to be your story, not ever, and you have to move on. Make a new story, paint your own picture. Wow, Norbert, that is insane that someone of that age would use a questionnaire like that. I wonder how much of this is just in the Mormon corridor, or if it is endemic throughout the North American Church. I highly doubt this happens much outside of North America. There needs to be cultural changes, and some policy changes as well. It is not just a rule at my temple, but a Church wide rule, that single men, over 30 cannot serve in the temple, except as a patron. That is unfair, and further marginalizes singles. I tried online dating a few times, and I had experiences like your acquaintance. Girls will not give good guys a chance. Brian F, is that true? I tried going to a multi-stake dance and left after 5 minutes because everyone was at least 50 or older. And I live in Utah where there are quite a few Mormons and plenty of single men. The problem is that guys my age seem to want someone they can create a life with, not someone who already has their own life. Such a fascinating conversation, Tracy. The elephant in the room here is that the demographics make things difficult for single women over 30 in the U. My cousin and his wife divorced in their early 30s. Add the Mormon filter on top of that reality, and all the cynicism on display here is easy to understand. I like the idea of you dating NOMOs. Or maybe we could import our way out of this problem! The problem is that the standard pattern hopes and dreams are built on marriage in the 18-23 range, children in 23-27-30, and life everlasting from then on. We have to make a new story. Painting their own picture could mean taking their focus off of marriage for the sake of marriage alone for the time being and contemplating what can they can make happen in their lives. Brian, the young women were being banned from performing baptism in some but not all of the temples if they were menstruating. A grassroots effort was made to contact each temple and find out what their policy was, and when a multitude of answers were gathered, showing no actual policy, the information was given to church headquarters, and a statement was issues that YW should be allowed to preform ordinance work regardless of their personal details. I disagree with the rule of 27. I got married at 27, kid at 28, another kid at 31. My wife was 26 when we got married. And I have several friends my age who married at 28 or 29. An old EQP of mine, now living in Cali, just got married for the first time—at age 40. Tracy, I can also confirm the rule that single men over 30 are excluded from temple service. When bishops recommend temple workers they must check off a list of requirements in addition to temple worthiness. One of these is that single men cannot serve once they turn 30. FWIW, a similar rule applies to recommendations for senior missionaries. Senior sisters can serve missions, but senior brothers cannot. I have never heard an official explanation for these rules, but they seem to suggest a view that single men are single by choice, but single sisters are not. In case you are not aware, there is another gender discrimination that applies only to sisters; namely, sisters with children at home cannot serve in the temple, but brothers can. My wife and I served in the Provo temple until our first child was born. She was then required to resign. I chose to do so with her. A father who is kept from his children all week due to work, and kept from his children on weekends due to church callings, can still be asked to serve as a temple worker. Sure, I went through a rebellious phase where I dated guys specifically because I knew they would set my dad off, but I was 15 and grew up. Is this another symptom of the perpetual adolescence for single mormon adults? Is this really a thing? Yeah, I think 27 is a bit young to be saying that. Well, my kids already have a dad. When I pointed out to a 32-year-old friend that he was asking people out who were more than 10 years younger than him, that gave him pause. And beyond social ineptitude. Who on earth thinks that you begin a relationship by giving your date a questionnaire. If she understands the allusion, give her a second chance. Otherwise, kiss her goodbye. Or whatever, since it appears that a kiss is out of the question. It makes no sense. I think that if i am worthy, and willing to serve and sacrifice, because temple service is a sacrifice of time, that I should be able to do so. Enna, I was generalizing slightly, I only have anecdotal evidence. I think that that argument is full of hooey, refering to the previous part of this paragraph. Your point is valid, and I wish that more girls thought that way. Maybe that is my problem. Trying to date people my age. Most often, I find 30-ish women to be uninteresting, unambitious, and frankly crazy. Some of them have had uncomfortably creative interpretations of the law of chastity, too. During the relationships with me, an engineer quit that, decided to become a florist while we were dating. One of my recurring nightmares is that I am still single. Thank goodness it is just a nightmare. I searched for dates through church activites, friends and the internet. I had varied experiences with internet dating in the 90s.. I dated a divorced woman living in the Salt Lake area who on the first date told me that she was looking for a man like Henry B. Eyring gee…I guess few can meet that standard. She also launched into a peeve about how her LDS friends remove their garments to workout and then wear their workout clothes for hours afterward without putting their garments back on. She also told me a story related to her ex-husband returning home from a surgical case appearing at the door in scrubs still stained with blood. Premature quesitons assessing righteousness levels or premature discussions related to ex-husbands or other recent male dates were turn-offs to me. I am bothered by knowing of a brother who served as a temple worker who was also collecting disability for not being able to be employed. Seems like if you have the ability to work a shift in the temple, but cannot work a shift of similar length and demands in a field where you get paid, you are not being honest in your dealings with your fellowmen. But the typical Mormon woman would not find me appealing. So that would be a problem. Probably my best chance for success would be to find someone through my Bloggernacle friends. Assuming none of that worked, I guess next would be to try the regional single adult activities, which would at least remove the variable of geographic distance from the equation. When I was young I never would have considered pursuing a non-LDS woman for a relationship, but now in my old age I would definitely be open to that, even if it meant having to explain the peculiarities of the religion and practice. But I feel highly confident that once I opened things up to the non-LDS world, I would do just fine. But then again there are some folks that just come across as trying to game the system.. Maybe your acquaintance falls into that group. There are lots of really good ones. And that some of the problems you describe can be attributed to the 27 or 30 or 40 year-old trying to create the 23-year-old dream. However, I can see how being single in the church contributes to being perceived as an adolescent. Not having children does the same thing. I was unable to get pregnant and for years I was treated like a child, until in my thirties when I finally had a baby. It was an overnight change. The unfortunate thing is, most of the women in my ward who are my age, have teenagers, while I have a toddler. This still creates a barrier. I have had women speak patronizingly to me because they still think I am 20 years old. I told them I had no idea. I went through a process very similar to the one described by Kevin in 81. Several Mormon women were willing to seriously date me, but they were often very desperate. However, most Mormon women wanted something else. I finally plunged into the non-Mormon dating world at 34. I was stunned by how similar it was. Oh sure, the drinking and chastity expectations were different, but every woman I dated was willing to respect my beliefs if only for one date in some cases. Explaining the peculiarities of Mormonism always seemed to be a bigger deal to me than to my date. But I still met the desperate types, the ones still looking for the perfect man according to some checklist, etc. Anyway, I am now engaged to an intelligent, accomplished, beautiful, and Christ-like Catholic woman. I think I just benefited by expanding my dating pool. I think emotional maturity is a big one when it comes to fostering any kind of successful relationship. I spent 8 years in a Midwest YSA branch and saw 20+ marriages come out of that unit under a variety of circumstances, but the emotional and spiritual maturity of both parties seemed to be strong indicator for the success or failure of the relationship. And, brother, I am so sorry for what you are experiencing right now. And just to balance out all the terrible stories of online dating, while I did experience a good share of weirdos and age-inappropriate men trying to contact me, I also met my husband online. After reading back through some of the comments, I have realized that I am guilty. Like the man willing to use Tracy for her uterus, I am willing to get married for the sperm. I want children more than I want to get married but I am not willing to break the law of chastity for it. I am not wholly against marriage, but I am okay being single and never thought it would be something I would need to do again. Single adoption is possible, but not on the salary I am expecting to receive as University Staff. I reckon that makes me just as bad as him. I did the LDS paradigm — marry young 19 had lots of children 9 and thought I was living the Mormon dream, altho abuse was always in the background. So when I finally divorced, I thought my paradigm would stay basically the same — marry a Mormon man and life would continue. Except i married a NOMO who is the delight of my life. I lived it for almost three decades. FWIW, out of my 8 adult children, three divorced from temple marriages. Out of those three, one is still single she has 4 kids, educated, nice-looking, home-owner, etc and VERY picky! Nobody thought it would last! Sixth child married a RM in the temple, still together, both left the church. Seventh child married young, pregnant, divorced, now engaged, also left the church. Eighth child married at 22, both less-active, happy. Each of my kids has their own set of experiences dating, marrying, church involvement. Being married is wonderful BUT I would rather NOT be married to someone who does not share my values and goal in life. There ARE worse things than being single. So interested in your comment 50. I was taken aback that an LDS bishop counseled church members to marry outside the temple. My sister told me he saw what they were dealing with and was just being real. Just to be clear defensive are we? Saw your apology, Tracy. Thank you but not necessary. My guess is that the way I wrote at first assumed a 100% culturally Mormon reader. My wife, who is an adult convert but now with 40 years experience in the Church and reasonably well known and published and a blogger so she tells her own stories , is not 100% culturally Mormon which is wonderful! She likes to say that she is fluent but not native. I know the difference and should have applied it. No idea why, though I wonder if part of it is because at my age, my uterus might be inhospitable to tadpoles. Re: 32 Oh, Amanda I am so sorry the other side of the coin had to show its ugly face to you. You know, I met a girl in my singles ward in Provo who was taller than me. She had the best personality, the best disposition, the best attitude, really a wonderful person. She came along when I was ready almost bags packed to get the hell out of Utah and when I had made my mind I would not ask any other LDS woman out ever again. I hope that Amanda found someone who loves her deeply. Today, I know it was for the best. I love my other half now, I think I am the luckiest person in the world. She is not LDS and I would never want to change that. My views and my attitudes regarding the church have evolved quite a bit, and I do not know many rank and file Mormons who share my objectivity regarding many of the cultural and doctrinal elements. And I dislike what women in general have to face when they are LDS. I feel like a fraud posting here bc I have been happily married for many years , but I have made some observations over the years of the dating scene in and out of the church. To me it boils down to that it is really difficult for men and women to simply have an un encumbered, enjoyable time together. Outside the church, I think bc there is such a focus on sex and an fairly prevalent attitude that if you like being with someone, then sex is the next logical step. And once the sex starts, it complicates the relationship, expectations, etc. In the Church, there is unfortunately way too much of the view that ALL dating is simply a prelude to marriage and can have no function otherwise. As a single at BYU, I cringed every time a guy usually on a first date asked if I could cook or how many kids I wanted. I just found the whole thing creepy. I think we should do a MUCH better job of preparing engaged couples for marriage and a healthy relationship. I really think that the marriage recommend interview also ought to include insistence on attendance at classes teaching some basic relationship and communications skills. Sorry for the long post, but obviously I have strong feelings here. If you add up all the ways you are different you will find that you are very rare. The example of the worst RM faux profile is a case in point. He was a person not far from the average Mormon man. There were lots of average Mormon women who felt comfortable there. If you are liberal, well read, older, and Mormon with an advanced degree, you have just moved yourself into a six sigma category. Six sigma is a few in a millions. You will have a very hard time meeting someone similar to you or whom you will like and who will like you, where you both will feel comfortable. I think those average Mormon women were wise in rejecting the six sigma CV in favor of the average. No one could be happy with that much mismatch. I found myself in the 8 or 9 sigma category and dating, a few in billions. God was my matchmaker and lined me up with a 10 sigma woman. I wonder what people think of us. The older you get, the harder it is. Now that sounds like fun! As a YSA, my potential dating pool was always very tiny. To put it in perspective, the metro Atlanta area has the same population as the entire state of Utah… and has only 1 singles ward. I had a couple of serious relationships but it never worked out. I quit my management position at a Fortune 100 company, went to BYU, completed an MBA, and found a job in Arizona. My new job was a serious step backwards I make less now, my work is less fulfilling, and I have fewer advancement opportunities. I made this sacrifice because getting married is a real priority for me. My experiences dating in Utah and Arizona have been very frustrating. Both the women and the men! I remember listening to a male acquaintance at BYU complain about a woman whose second toe was longer than than her big toe this was evidently a deal breaker for him. In the non-mormon world, you approach a woman, tell a funny joke she laughs , and conversation just flows! Ask for her number, call her, and go get dinner. I turn 31 in a few months. If you think finding someone single, liberal and thinking is hard, try finding someone moderate, thinking and single. But I find most of the good guys are non-opinionated to the point of pain, or looking for someone without kids who can mold herself to his life. In order to not be infantilized, I simply rejected the working model, and the possibility of marrying again. My family ward was happy to have me back full time. SilverRain, I actually thought of you while I was writing this post. We know we have a lot of really great people reading and interacting with the community, and probably even more who lurk or are not always comfortable jumping in, but who also might be interested. Sharee, I understand your point about single sisters being blessed in the world to come, and that you are referring to yourself. However, I submit that that statement also applies to men, who for whatever reason, are unable to get married. I thin that God will be merciful to all, regardless of gender. Seriously, Can we all admit that the long list of problems with Mormon single-hood is in large part to our very 19th C. IT sounds nice right? The rest of you will paired off of with a suitable mate in the after-life who may or may not already have been sealed to someone of course. As a result I am largely without bias in viewing the question. So one of the questions I have tried to answer as an adult is; why would God command it? This is one of the answers. Another more compelling answer to me, at least is that in order to happily live polygamy and share a mate with others one must transcend insecurity, selfishness, possessiveness and jealousy. Since our example Christ exhibited none of these immature emotions or behaviors it seems to me that bi-gender polygamy practiced over several generations would produce a much more Christlike people. The rest of you will paired off of with a suitable mate in the after-life who may or may not already have been sealed to someone of course. Who would want to spend eternity with someone we were just randomly matched with? And I do agree, Brian F, that men will have the same opportunity in the next life if they have been unable to find a mate in this one. Tracy, I feel the same way. At any rate, we went through our divorces about the same time, and we have plenty of other similarities beyond merely our social and marital circumstances. Patterns give framework to adjust within, they can also give inspiration for creativity and the best patterns give tips as to why things are done the way they are. I know of one YSA Branch that has linked your post to their FB for discussion. As a kinda young widow, and the mother of two YSAs, I find this conversation relevant to all unmarried adults in the church. Re: 149 David, Of all the comments I have read in this thread, yours really concerns me. I went to Utah for the same reasons. I wanted to have a family like those pictured in LDS posters or the Ensign. The great difference was that for me, having been in Utah propelled my career significantly. I am a medical device engineer and having earned an engineering degree from BYU and I worked for the leading manufacturer of cardiovascular surgery devices, which makes my resume look very good in my area of expertise. I left Utah with the tools to be successful, and a new world has literally opened before me, where dating is the way you describe it, not some creepy protocol created by elderly people with 18th century views. I am not going to give you too many details, but if there is any possibility that you can go back to the east coast and re-route your career as you had previously accomplished there, you should strongly consider doing so. It pains me to hear your story. Hope you can return to the success path you had created for yourself prior to moving from the east coast and hope you will find someone amazing that values you for you. I am not sure you realize what big of a crossroad you are at. You can be certain foolish behavior occurs outside of LDS culture and LDS culture is not the cause of it. But rather certain people are imperfect and they use whatever foundation they have to magnify their imperfections to others — be that foundation LDS culture, traditional Samoan culture, secular British culture, etc. What a bunch of snobs. Looking to the masses is like looking at a pie, and thinking all there is is crust when the best parts take a little more effort than a casual glance, or playing the numbers. Also, they often have mutually exclusive ideals on THEIR list. One experience that made me roll my eyes was a slightly shorter, intelligent, compelling, passionate guy who I was interested in getting to know better and possibly pursuing a relationship with. He insisted that all women go for tall, strong-jawed types over intellectuals. When I tried to point out that only the shallow, beauty-obsessed girls do that, he refused to believe me and said to my face I was lying. Talk about reflective delusions. Get yourself involved in things you enjoy, so you can meet people who enjoy the same things. And it breaks my heart to so my brothers and sister in the church pass up opportunities to be happy NOW — in exchange for some future maybe. Other people of faith have a high place for family and marriage in their theology of course. Count me in for the BBC dating game! I think everyone needs to take a good long realistic look in the mirror and seek to be yoked equally with their partner, i. Thanks for making me laugh even as I wanted to cry. The comment about single adult infanticide is especially insightful. If this life really is all that, and if marriage and family really are the best training ground for godhood to put it firmly in orthodox Mormon terms , and if we believe couples who are able to seal themselves together in practical terms through a lifetime of bonding will accept the sealing ordinance in the next life and be sealed in the eyes of God at that time, I have a hard time encouraging someone to remain single rather than marry a good person of another faith. My guess at the reasoning behind that rule is the idea that single men have more control over being married or not and that a weekly night of temple work may be better used on a date. Although many temple workers seem to like to set them up. Good eggs, though, all. My 31 year old single doctor brother has tried to play the numbers, much like David, and live and attend school in high-density Mormon areas, currently in AZ. So far, no luck. I feel for them with a different intensity than I feel for my fellow divorces. Another hurdle for single people with children in the Church is geography. While I have not dated since my divorce how does a single working mother have time? And I suppose I am already aware of most of my prospects in my stake, or could be, if I could stomach the idea of attending any of those activities designed for single people. I had a friend who grew up in a messed up family that was also a blended family. I now tease her that she has banned me from dating and marrying and while I take her opinion with a grain of salt, I really do think the notion of blending a family is a scary one for many people. So when people preference the childless in dating over people who have children, I understand that somewhat irrational generalization. And it breaks my heart to so my brothers and sister in the church pass up opportunities to be happy NOW — in exchange for some future maybe. By the vision of the Almighty I have seen it. Why not trust that 30+ single men can choose for themselves how to best balance their priorities instead of arbitrarily applying a requirement. Is not the reasoning prohibiting a non-widower single even more heightened in his situation? With kids to care for and such, seems he should be out finding them a mom instead of dedicating a few hours to temple service weekly. I am active in the Church and a guy. I live in a stake here in Canada, the only one in my province. When it comes to marriage it says when i choose a companion to share my life with choose one who and then a list of qualities. It is nothing to be happy about, nor deplored. In my admittedly myopic view, there are much more important considerations to be regarded in life than your particular set of generative organs. Certainly none of us merits any personal credit for such. Two thoughts floated through my head reading some of these comments. More than a little objectifying. Especially on a venting thread. Of course it is arbitrary and bound to really sting someone; as are many other rules in the Church and elsewhere. Someone somewhere still thinks it is a good enough idea to keep around. I bet there are more variation of this equation going on everywhere. And I am sure there are people being completely left out of the dating game. My roomates and I back in my Provo ward were curious as to how this equation played in our ward. So we started asking casually and asking a lot. We asked the members of the bishopric, we asked the girls we home taught, we asked the guys, and we shared ourselves how we were limiting dating and who we would simply never ask out no matter what. That was not only entertaining but educating. Here is the low down of what I learned: people lie a lot about these things. Guys do limit who they ask, and they do claim nobody wanted to go out with them. So, we decided to casually start asking out every single girl in our ward save those who already were in a relationship, and one cool girl that unfortunately had a mental disability. We divided the whole Relief Society in three there were three of us then we assigned them as we wished. We asked the girls, only once, we did not try asking anyone again who had made an excuse not to go out in the reasonably and foreseeable future. Two of us got ZERO dates out of the activity. One of my roommates got TWO dates WOW that is TWO. It is a fact, not every single adult out there will ask every single adult of the opposite gender they have access to. I think we all must just accept that fact, everyone will pose limits as to who they will be willing to date. The question is, what are those limits based on? Nice to meet you! So glad to be outta there. I mean, if a non-member reflects your lifestyle, then fine. Kudos to those who have enough else in common to still build a relationship. I got asked out fairly regularly, actually. I just got tired of being an object. Sorry, Kaphor, my background is in biology. My observation is that all forms of life reproduce, with monotonous boring consistency and regularity. They respond to the biological imperative. Why should something I happen to have in common with dogs and monkeys and all other mammalian species be venerated or revered? Anyway, I know I will never have a uterus, to revere or reproduce or hysterectomy or anything else. And those that have one seem to have little enough use for the likes of me. With our own high expectations and self-centered demands, we have struck the perfect balance, effectively excluding each other from any foreseeable future consideration. All seems perfectly fine. What was on your Ipod playlist, Alvin? Are you a Democrat or Republican? How about them Cubs? In and out of the Church, I have seen rules of that sort promulgated on the back of a bad experience or two. Somebody, somewhere, took advantage, got in trouble, made a mess, and the powers-that-be made a rule—generalizing from the specific, or creating a safety margin, or speaking to the specific but being heard in the general. EOR, from my perspective I would characterize it as much more than just high expectation. In myself, such an attitude would simply be narcissism. What I mean is one so in love with their own perfection, as to make it impossible to ever even provisionally regard another person as acceptable or compatible, either as a marriage partner, a friend, or even as a reproductive organ. The only solution would be to marry yourself, I suppose. The term narcissim supposedly derives from the fascinating Greek figure Narcissis, who rejected the amourous overtures of the beautiful nymph Echo, and languished forever pining for someone equal to his own superlative beauty, as he regarded his reflection in a pool of water. He was eventually transformed into a lovely flower. I should add, I agree with you. In my efforts to keep my comment pithy, I neglected to include women, who do the very same thing. Many women have a very specific list, and will not deviate from it. For example, one of my adult sons helped organize with a Regional YSA dance. Because he is a gentleman, he took notice who was getting asked to dance and who was not. He asked one particular woman to dance, even though he was not personally attracted to her. I kid you not, in mid-dance she grilled him on his choice of majors. When he told her he was majoring in Engineering, she turned on her heels and left him standing in the middle of the dance floor. I am going to marry a doctor. Especially new people with similar interests. But then, my interests are pretty eclectic. The general issue of someone with children having a difficult time finding someone to remarry is pervasive enough that there have been hugely popular songs written about it. I am going to marry a doctor. Yeah, I remember that hunger for money. Oh well, to each their own! What a great conversation. I have accused in my heart men who are blatantly absent in needed temple shifts in a growing sea of non-elderly, single women temple workers. Oh wait, I know why….. A little snark there but this thing gets pretty complex very quickly. Honestly, I think we should be encouraging mid-singles to work in the temple. What a nice way to meet someone, get to know them over time, and be sure they believe close to what you do. We should be herding mid-singles into temple shifts! The other BCC permas and I have been discussing the interest in this thread, and we would like to find a way to help our readers connect with each other- particularly all the singles who have commented or who are lurking.